Global South

Season 2 Episode 12 : Africa’s Economic Opportunities, EU Aid to Ukraine

April 24, 2026 — In this week’s episode of Around the World, Mavis Owusu-Gyamfi, President and CEO of the African Center for Economic Transformation (ACET), joins hosts Dhruva Jaishankar and Rachel Rizzo to discuss Africa’s shifting economic landscape, from declining global aid and greater domestic resource mobilization to expanding opportunities with non-traditional partners. They also recap recent developments in Ukraine, including the European Union’s latest aid package and what it signals for the trajectory of the war with Russia.

Available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Image: Divaris Shirichena, via Unsplash
Image: alexkich, via Shutterstock

sneak peak

Dhruva Jaishankar: On this week's episode.

Mavis Owusu-Gyamfi: The impact of the U.S.-Iran war on the global economy is huge. In Africa in particular, we are beginning to see this in the increasing of fuel and fertilizer prices. East, West and Central Africa are literally entering their planting seasons and high fertilizer costs. That means that we should prepare for food insecurity risks ahead of us, especially in the Sahel and the Horn of Africa.

Rachel Rizzo: Today, The European Council adopted the final piece of legislation needed to unlock a 90 billion euro loan to Ukraine.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Africa as a continent is not often enough in the news, yet the world's approach to this vast and growing continent is changing. The African Union joined the G20 in 2023. Kenya has been pioneering digital payments. The United States and the European Union have invested massively in a railway in Angola as part of the Lobito corridor and attempted extracting critical minerals from the Democratic Republic of Congo and from Zambia. Last year, South Africa signed the first clean trade investment partnership with the European Union. And earlier this year, the massive Dangote refinery reached capacity in Nigeria, turning that country into a net exporter of petroleum, diesel and aviation fuel.

welcome to around the world

Dhruva Jaishankar: Hi, I'm Dhruva Jaishankar.

Rachel Rizzo: And I'm Rachel Rizzo. Welcome to the Around the World podcast. Your essential guide to understanding the forces shaping our world today. Here at Around the World, we cut through the noise to bring you clear, insightful analysis of the most important developments in geopolitics.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Whether it's security challenges in Europe, great power competition in Asia, domestic politics in the United States, or regional developments in Latin America or the Middle East, we’ll discuss what's happening and more importantly, why it matters.

Rachel Rizzo: Thanks as always for tuning in. And be sure to like and subscribe to the Around the World podcast on Youtube, Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Funding Ukraine

Rachel Rizzo: Hey Dhruva.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Hi Rachel, how are you?

Rachel Rizzo: Good. Okay, I'm not even going to ask where you are because I can hear a European siren in the background. So I know you're not in the US.

Dhruva Jaishankar: No, I'm in Brussels. I'm here this week for meetings and it's been a very instructive week. We've been discussing clean energy financing and trade with the Global South and EU, investments in that area, but also meetings with the European Commission on a variety of issues in the Indo-Pacific and beyond. So it's been a really interesting week here. We'll have opportunities to talk about this, I think, in the future. A lot going on there. But speaking of Europe, what have you been tracking? A topic that's been out of the news a little bit in the last few months, which is Ukraine, the war that continues there. What have you been tracking on Ukraine?

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, this is something we wanted to talk about today. You we've been so focused on Iran and what's happening in the Middle East. Obviously, that has not gone away. There will still be much to talk about, certainly. But I didn't want to let the moment pass without discussing a major development that happened just today. The European Council adopted the final piece of legislation needed to unlock a 90 billion euro loan to Ukraine. This was originally agreed upon by the European Council back in December of 2025. discussed it. I think we discussed it on this podcast back a few months ago.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Mm-hmm.

Rachel Rizzo: Hungary, as we all know, had held up the loan with a veto since February, but they lifted it this week, which ended a two-month impasse. And the breakthrough came just a couple of days after Ukrainian President Zelensky announced that the Druzhba pipeline, which carries Russian oil to both Hungary and Slovakia, and had been the main source of Orban, or so he says, his veto on this loan, that this pipeline had repaired and it could resume operations. And again, the disruption of that oil flow was what Orban had basically said was his reason and what guided his decision to veto the loan thus far.

Dhruva Jaishankar: And it probably was no coincidence that Orban lost an election as well in the meantime.

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, there's probably has something to do with it. He lost a major election, a huge upset for him, but a major moment obviously for Hungary.

Dhruva Jaishankar: So what is the financing that will now go from the European Union to Ukraine?

Rachel Rizzo: So the deal is that in 2026, Brussels will transfer 45 billion euros with 16.7 billion allocated for financial and budget support and 28.3 billion euros for military support. Now, this comes not a minute too soon. Ukraine continues to be hammered daily by Russian military attacks just because this war has not been on the front page of the news anymore because everyone has been focused on Iran does not mean that it has relented. It is continuing and Russia, or Ukraine for that matter, desperately needs this money. The remaining 45 billion euros is earmarked for 2027. And what that's intended to cover is basically two thirds of Ukraine's funding needs. And then Western allies are expected to cover the remaining third.

Dhruva Jaishankar: So this is a sizable amount of money, and yet it's coming at a time when Russia seems to be hitting a lot of critical infrastructure in Ukraine, but also making very incremental gains on the ground. It's still a relative deadlock. Now, wasn't there some debate? We discussed this on a previous episode several months ago, I think, about there was a debate around using Russian frozen assets. What's going on there?

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, so this is basically a continuation of that debate. Back in December, the EU debated and then ultimately rejected this frozen assets route back in December of 2025. They thought it was too risky. They thought that it might scare other investors away from the European continent. What they agreed upon instead was to borrow from capital markets. And then they basically spent the following months getting all of this legislation in place. Hungary's veto held things up from until just this week today. And so basically this adoption was the last piece of paperwork needed to really start sending the money. So what's interesting about this was that when the EU was debating potentially using Russian frozen assets, the idea was that if they gave Ukraine a loan, they could be liable for repayment of that principle once it receives war reparations from Russia. And obviously, those war reparations are never going to come. That was sort of the debate around using those frozen assets that they would eventually be repaid. But instead, they went down this other route, and they have that same framework in place of repayment. But the idea of Russia paying war reparations is obviously extremely, extremely unlikely. So the way I look at this is kind of as a grant to Ukraine. I don't think that it's going to end up repaid. But again, very kind of tricky financial math here, but really shows the resolve still in Europe for support for Ukraine, which I think is you know obviously good for Zelensky.

Dhruva Jaishankar: And there's another source of financing that we can probably discuss in a future episode, which is Zelensky did this trip to the Middle East, which is you know likely, he visited Syria, visited Saudi Arabia. And one thing we're likely to see much more of is Ukraine using its pretty sizable now defense industrial base to export arms to places like the Middle East and that need it, particularly given the Iran conflict. And that will become a major source of revenue for Ukraine as the war continues with Russia. So something to watch out for, yeah.

Rachel Rizzo: Absolutely. And what you say is right. If you look at the way that Ukraine has responded to this war over the last four years, besides just fighting it, is that they have had an immense growth in their defense industrial base.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Mm-hmm.

Rachel Rizzo: I mean, they are one of the strongest armies, militaries in Europe now. They are on the front lines of the latest military technologies, especially drones. And people are looking at the Ukrainians to talk about the future of warfare,

Dhruva Jaishankar: Mm-hmm.

Rachel Rizzo: future of war fighting. And so again, when it comes to rebuilding Ukraine and integrating Ukraine, hopefully with its future in Europe, its defense industrial base is gonna be a huge part of that conversation.

Dhruva Jaishankar: And two other aspects of that that I think are worth pointing out. One is it's quite it's becoming more and more integrated with lot of other Central European defense suppliers as well. Poland, Czech Republic. In fact, the Czech Republic is also importing a lot of drones from Taiwan, many of which are presumably making their way to the front in Ukraine, the Baltics as well. So there's now a kind of a pretty vibrant and interconnected Central Eastern European defense supply chain ecosystem that is emerging. But, and again, something to watch out for. But the other thing is, this has also become a subject of negotiations with Russia, right? But part of Putin's terms in the negotiations is that his commitments for Ukraine to disarm. And so even if the status quo plus or minus remains in terms of territorial possession, that remains an abiding concern for Russia, that it doesn't want extremely heavily armed, well-trained, battle-hardened military in Ukraine to remain. So the disarmament clauses will be something that will keep on popping up in future negotiations. again, something to watch out for.

Shifting Realities: Africa's Economic Future & Development

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, absolutely. But moving beyond Ukraine, we are going to go south today and talk about a continent that we often don't talk about on this show. And we have a wonderful guest here with us today to discuss it. So, Dhruva, I'll hand it over to you to do that intro.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Africa as a continent is not often enough in the news, yet the world's approach to this vast and growing continent is changing. The African Union joined the G20 in 2023. Kenya has been pioneering digital payments. The United States and the European Union have invested massively in a railway in Angola as part of the Lobito corridor and attempted extracting critical minerals from the Democratic Republic of Congo and from Zambia. Last year, South Africa signed the first clean trade investment partnership with the European Union. And earlier this year, the massive Dangote refinery reached capacity in Nigeria, turning that country into a net exporter of petroleum, diesel and aviation fuel.

Rachel Rizzo: At the same time, however, the IMF just actually downgraded Sub-Saharan Africa's 2026 growth, growth forecast. The region entered 2026 with its strongest economic momentum in a decade. And then came the war in Iran. So the IMF and the World Bank, which just had their spring meetings in Washington, DC, really delivered this sobering reality of a potential 23% collapse in global development aid with Western donors cutting funding for the second consecutive year.

Dhruva Jaishankar: So to discuss Africa's present predicaments and future opportunities, we're really pleased to welcome Mavis Owusu-Gyamfi, President and CEO of the African Center for Economic Transformation, a Pan-African think tank focused on economic policy. And she's joining us from Accra in Ghana. Mavis, thanks for joining us on Around the World.

Mavis Owusu-Gyamfi: Thank you very much, Druva. It's a real honor to join you on Around the World today.

Dhruva Jaishankar: So just to you know get started, I saw you not that long ago in Washington DC for the spring IMF World Bank spring meetings. What were some of the outcomes of the spring meetings that mattered for Africa? I know there's been some talk about borrowers joining, creating a coalition of some kind. What managed to materialize on that front? And the IMF's own briefing said that this is different, particularly focusing on aid cuts. What are some of your takeaways from the spring meetings?

Mavis Owusu-Gyamfi: There were three things I took away from the spring meetings. The first one was the title, Building Prosperity Through Policy. Now this title was very important for Africa. The way in which we translate our policies into actions in a way that improves livelihoods for all Africans was key to us. And a lot of the meetings during the week focused on strengthening partnerships and accelerating development in a very uncertain times. So as we heard earlier on, the impact of the U.S.-Iran war on the global economy is huge. In Africa in particular, we are beginning to see this in the increasing of fuel and fertilizer prices. We heard Dangote during the spring meetings talk about how intraday springs of $10 per barrel could cripple Africa's aviation industry. East, West and Central Africa are literally entering their planting seasons and high fertilizer costs. That means that we should prepare for food insecurity risks ahead of us, especially in the Sahel and the Horn of Africa, where we traditionally have food insecurity challenges. Alongside that, entrepreneurs are being affected. We heard about countries like Kenya having to store tea that was due for GCC countries. We have a number of East African countries with migrants in GCC countries who are going to be affected as inflows of remittances fall. So we can't underestimate the impact of the war on Africa. And then the third thing was the fact that the financing landscape is changing so drastically. The OECD announced just before the spring meetings that ODA from DAC members, are the traditional development donors, fell by a 23.1 % drop in 2025. Now that's a record number. Most of the traditional aid donors, U.S., UK, Germany, Japan are all cutting their aid to the world. At the same time, Africa is having to navigate the high cost of borrowing. UNDP announced earlier in the week that they estimated that by removing subjectivity in credit ratings, African nations could save as much as 74.5 billion dollars. To make matters worse those who are servicing their debts are spending an average of 17 percent of their revenues on debt. So as you can see Dhruva

Dhruva Jaishankar: And I think that's almost as much as health and their spending on health and education, right? In some cases more than their spending on health and education.

Mavis Owusu-Gyamfi: You're right, in a number of cases, more than they're spending on their social services. So I think coordination amongst borrowing countries has become not necessarily important, but critical. And so that's why we were really excited to see coordination with the launch of the borrower's platform. But in Africa in particular, we like the fact that the African regional institutions are coming together ,African governments are talking about how do we collaborate as borrowers so that when we go to the broader borrower's platform, we can ensure that we have a much stronger voice. I mean, we can't keep going round and round in cycles. And then I think for me, I would say the final thing that was really striking, Dhruva, was there was a lot of conversations around domestic resource mobilization and better utilization of domestic capital markets in Africa. Now, as Africans, we all agree we need stronger tax systems, we need to better use our domestic capital, we need to improve public financial management. It is critical, but we must be careful that this isn't suddenly seen as a substitute for sustained global responsibility and in the financial space.

Rachel Rizzo: You know, this is really interesting because I wanted to follow up on, I was going to ask specifically about growth opportunities, which I think you've pointed to in your statement. I wanted to know about kind of looking back at the spring meetings you were speaking in Washington. What is this like a story about this economic transformation that the audience in Washington is almost certainly getting wrong? And like, what do you think partners and investors should be looking at in this specific place?

Mavis Owusu-Gyamfi: Okay. Thank you. And I think the first thing that the audience in Washington is getting wrong is the focus on GDP growth figures. You know, everybody talked about IMF downgrading their growth forecast for Africa and everybody was downcast by it. But there isn't enough focus on the quality of that growth. Okay, is that growth generating decent jobs? Is it building productive capacity? Is it driving structural change? And I don't hear enough about that. Okay, we don't hear enough about intracontinental trade. This is something that is really going to drive the quality of growth, but that is not going to happen unless attention is paid to infrastructure, logistic and cross-border regulatory reforms. We kind of skim around green industrialization. Dhruva, you and I had an opportunity to share a platform on green industrialization and we talk a lot about Africa's critical minerals and the fact that Africa is sitting on 60% of the world's solar resources. It's all nice to hear, but when there is an investment going into it, okay, Africa sits on 30% of the world's critical minerals, but it only contributes 2 % of global manufacturing value added. It sits on 60% of the world resources, but 600 million Africans still lack reliable electricity because they don't have access to technology to transform these resources to power. We have huge natural resources, cotton, gold, cocoa, you name it, but we are not manufacturing and processing it. We continue to export our raw commodities. So we're not seeing value chains develop either within or across borders. And most worryingly, the role of African businesses and private sector is overlooked. Look, everybody talks about Dangote, okay? But Dangote is not just the only African business on the continent. It might be the richest, but there are a thousand and one Dangotes who can be invested in and supported to become future alternative names to Dangote. So unless we start to talk about how do we invest in the domestic private capital market. How do we invest in regional institution, development, financial institutions on the continent? Who know how to invest in these companies? America and the world is missing a great opportunity. And I believe it was Dangote that said last week, well, don't worry, the return on investment is so great. If you don't come, those of us who are here will just continue collecting more.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Which actually I want to follow up a little bit on that, which is you work at the African Center for Economic Transformation. It's a very progressive looking at Africa, not just as an aid recipient as it's often looked at in the West, but as a sort of equal partner and one capable of developing markets and developing industrial growth. If not, I think we can all agree that traditional aid is going to be coming down, even if it comes up a little bit in the near future. What are sort of market-based solutions that you think are viable from, here it seems to me that it's almost like a negative feedback loop. People say, well, these projects are not bankable, not financially viable, so people don't invest. But unless you actually stimulate the investment, nothing's going to happen. And then if you could just touch upon a little bit new partners who are playing a role now in Africa, China, the Gulf, India. Do you see them as having a different approach and is that in some ways a true alternative to investment from traditional sources in developed world?

Mavis Owusu-Gyamfi: Okay, Dhruva that's a very packed question. I'm going to try my best. So let me begin you know, the growth, you know, the growth opportunities on the continent. The asset, we have something called the African Transformation Index, and we look at, you know, countries that are transforming their economies. And one of the indices we look at is the extent to which you are diversifying your economy and as a result, creating investment opportunities. And we see pockets of it all across the continent. So in North Africa, I'd like to encourage people to look at Morocco and Tunisia. They have a fantastic automotive and aerospace manufacturing assembly house that they are working on for Renault and Peugeot that can be expanded. They are building phosphate-based industrial value chains. Morocco is celebrated for its industrial zones. You go across to Tunisia, textiles and clothing, electronics and mechanical components. You go to East Africa, you see FinTech, tourism, digitalization, AI innovation in Kenya. Mauritius is driving innovation on textiles and light manufacturing alongside great financial centers of excellence, including offshore banking, et cetera. You go to South Africa, we see the emergence of industrial base. We've seen it in Uganda, Eswatini. Nobody ever thinks of us at Eswatini, but it's one the largest hubs of textiles and sugar industry. So when we think about Africa, we don't see a poor continent. We see a continent not just of potential, but a continent that's showing results. And with additional investment, could just bloom and thrive. That's what we see on the continent. It has challenges, but those challenges will only be overcome like every other continent with strong investment, both domestic and global. Now you asked me about the non-traditional partners that are coming on board. There's a reason countries go to them. Look, for a very long time, Africa said it needed in infrastructure and the traditional donors did not invest in infrastructure. They didn't think it was a priority for Africa. Guess what? China did. It changed the landscape for Africa as we know it today. Okay. We are beginning to see infrastructure that is connecting Africa. When Africa's manufacturing base grows, it can service its own middle class and stop being a net importer of clothes and food, et cetera. By connecting through infrastructure, that Chinese investment is helping to make a big difference. Other non-traditional donors, Turkey, India, et cetera, that you've, the GCC that you've mentioned are all actually engaging with Africa as investment partners. Now the onus is on African countries to ensure that they are negotiating robustly, that they have the skills, the capability, the know-how to negotiate properly. And, you know, this is one of the things that I think the borrower's club is going to really help with. Because what it's going to do over time is that African countries are not just going to be negotiating on investments and loans, et cetera, but they can learn from each other when they are negotiating with these new donors. And also, they might even get to that point where they borrow together to facilitate interconnectivity because the future of Africa is going to be realized through regional partnerships.

Rachel Rizzo: So I wanted to follow up on, you mentioned countries like Morocco, Tunisia, you mentioned South Africa, Uganda, and then sectors like fintech, tourism, AI innovation, financial centers of excellence. Do you see Western partners like the United States and Europe changing their their visions when it comes to real partnerships, private-public partnerships, private-private partnerships in Africa. That's kind of the first part. But then, going back to Dhruva's question about non-traditional partners and growing partnerships between different African countries in, China or India, is there. I don't know how to phrase this. Is there a worry or is there an idea amongst industry leaders, policymakers, that they don't want to get caught in this broader geopolitical competition between the United States and China? They don't want to have to look east or west. They want to be seen as partners for both sides. And that's the correct approach. I'd just be curious as to how this is playing out in the way that you're seeing it. So two vastly different questions but hopefully like bottom to top.

Mavis Owusu-Gyamfi: Okay, so you know something Rachel, I think that the traditional donors are changing their approach. You know, if you look at how they are engaging in Africa, a lot of people don't like it when I say the word transactional, but it is becoming more transactional. It's about what can we get from you and what can you get from us? So if you look at the UK government, the UK government has shifted from a traditionally large aid donor to really pushing British investment international. It's kind of like their new flagship. So you see BII everywhere. And I believe I saw the CEO of BII, Leslie recently on an interview saying, you know, UK development investment can help development and at the same time make profits with the UK. You know, everybody's doing it. The U.S. has become very transactional. The German government recently launched its new develop assistance and it's very business to business focused. So everybody is shifting into that transactional phase. They like to call it mutual interest. I call it transactional. It's a new way of doing business. And so that's why we're saying that the onus comes on us to make sure that we have the skills and the capabilities, especially with negotiation.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Rachel Rizzo: Okay.

Mavis Owusu-Gyamfi: So that we are getting the best out of these deals. You know, like last week, a report was launched, which it was launched by Brook, no, it wasn't Brookings, Boston University. And they said that China's investment in Africa, which see a direct trend to growth, they couldn't show any of that for the World Bank investment in Africa over the last 20 years. That's a telling statement. Of course, it will be challenged.

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Interesting.

Mavis Owusu-Gyamfi: And there are different ways you can look at the building blocks of growth, but it's a very strong statement to make. So I think everybody is becoming transactional. It's the nature of the world we are operating in at the moment. And in terms of your second question on where does Africa stand, I'd like to go to a very famous independent leader called Kwame Nkrumah who said,

Dhruva Jaishankar: Mm-hmm.

Mavis Owusu-Gyamfi: We don't face East, we don't face West, we just look forward. And I believe African countries in their silence are sending that very message to the world. We work with everyone, so long as it's in our interest. We are just looking forward. And for us, what we are saying to all our leaders is when you're looking forward, look forward to economic transformation, growth with depth, diversification export competitiveness, productivity, effective use of technology, all for the betterment of the well-being of human beings on this continent. That's it.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Well, thank you Mavis for joining us and for taking all of our questions. There's so much more to talk about. Hopefully we'll have you and other colleagues of yours from Africa on this in the future. But thank you again Mavis for joining us from Accra. I'm signing off from Brussels. Rachel is in New Delhi. But thanks to our listeners for joining us on this week's episode of Around the World.

Mavis Owusu-Gyamfi: Thank you, Dhruva and Rachel. And thank you for taking Africa's message to the world.

Rachel Rizzo: Absolutely. Thanks.

Season 2 Episode 1 : Venezuela Operations, Greenland Tensions, and Recognition of Somaliland

January 9, 2026 — To kick off Season 2 of Around the World, hosts Dhruva Jaishankar and Rachel Rizzo recap what went down in Venezuela and the U.S. military’s capture of Nicolás Maduro and his wife. They also discuss the revived tensions between the United States and Greenland, and touch on Israel’s recent recognition of Somaliland as an independent state. 

Available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Image: SWinxy, CC BY 4.0, via Wikimedia Commons

Image: www.horndiplomat, Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons

SNEAK PEAK

Dhruva Jaishankar: On this week's episode of Around the World.

Dhruva Jaishankar: So there were strikes against Venezuelan facilities, both military bases, port communications, antennas and such. This then led to a pretty targeted special forces operations with law enforcement officials, because again, Maduro is being tried. They went in straight and managed to get him in the middle of the night, and his wife, and extract them. it was a pretty daring military operation. It really showcases some of the unique capabilities of US military. There are not too many other military forces around the world that they're capable of doing such an operation. So seemingly effortlessly,

Rachel Rizzo: Greenland is an autonomous territory, but it is a part of Denmark. It's the largest island in the world. It is strategically located in the Arctic. Because of climate change, northern shipping routes, the seasons that those shipping routes can be used are becoming longer and China and Russia are working together to sort of consolidate control over those potential shipping routes. And so I think Trump wants to make sure that the United States is not only a player in this region, but is the dominant player in this region.

Dhruva Jaishankar: There has been some activism for some time, both by the people, by the de facto government of Somaliland, but also certain others to recognize it as an independent country. the United Arab Emirates has been amongst the most vocal in pushing for such recognition, not publicly, but certainly lobbying quite heavily to do that. For Israel, I think there is an added benefit. it's seeking greater recognition from different places. It's been attacked by Houthis in Yemen, who are just across the Red Sea from Somaliland. And so Israel obviously has an added incentive.

Welcome to Around the World

Dhruva Jaishankar: Hi, I'm Dhruva Jaishankar.

Rachel Rizzo: And I'm Rachel Rizzo. Welcome to the Around the World podcast. Your essential guide to understanding the forces shaping our world today. Every week, we cut through the noise to bring you clear, insightful analysis of the most important developments in geopolitics.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Whether it's security challenges across Europe, power dynamics in Asia, domestic updates from the United States, or regional updates in Latin America or the Middle East, we make sure you're up to speed on what's happening and more importantly, why it matters.

Rachel Rizzo: Thanks for tuning in. And also be sure to like and subscribe to the Around the World podcast on both Youtube, Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Rachel Rizzo: Hey Dhruva and happy 2026. How was your break?

Dhruva Jaishankar: Happy New Year to you too. Good. I was in New Mexico and enjoying being out West and now back in Washington, DC. And how are you?

Rachel Rizzo: Things are good. Just was in Utah with family, now back in New Delhi, and it has been a newsy six days, hasn't it?

Dhruva Jaishankar: Yes, absolutely. So we're starting season two of Around the World with what promises to be a very exciting year. Just a few things, I think, to watch out for. I mean, we're going to get into what happened in the last week and the last few days. But I think in the next few months and the rest of year, we'll be looking out for a possible Donald Trump visit to China in April.

Rachel Rizzo: Mm-hmm.

Dhruva Jaishankar: We'll have the FIFA World Cup here in the US in the summer, the 250th anniversary of the United States. Trump also plans to host the G20 leaders in Miami this fall. And we'll have perhaps one of the most consequential midterm elections in the United States in long time.

Rachel Rizzo: Absolutely.

Dhruva Jaishankar: And all of that will have international repercussions as well. And also, again, I think we'll be tracking some big uncertainties. I'm sure you've been following, of course, the Ukraine ceasefire talks.

Rachel Rizzo: Yep, it's a big one.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Which seem to be two steps forward, two steps back.

Rachel Rizzo: Always.

New Year, New Venezuela

Dhruva Jaishankar: And then we'll see also whether the US-China trade ceasefire holds until April and then again until the rest of the year. So a lot of things to watch out for. And then of course, these big uncertainties. And the first one we'll get into, I think, is Venezuela.

New Year, New Venezuela

Rachel Rizzo: And that is the big news topic of the last couple of days. I woke up here, I think I was going to bed here maybe on Sunday and started getting texts from people about the United States, the Trump administration specifically nabbing Nicolas Maduro, former, I guess now leader of Venezuela. So can you just give us a quick overview? What just happened in Venezuela and what's happening now?

Dhruva Jaishankar: So we had actually discussed Venezuela, I think on the third episode of the show, I think back in about October or so, and there was already a US military buildup underway in the Caribbean, the deployment of an aircraft carrier group to the region. But what we saw happen in the early hours of early in the new year was two and a half hour operation by US special forces led by the Army's Delta Force that went to Caracas following bombing, so a bombing campaign, targeted bombing campaign, nabbed Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro and his wife, brought them back to New York where they're facing now charges related to drug related charges in a US court. And so it's in some ways quite a pretty bold operation that came, you know, I can't think of a recent precedent like this against a head of state or government.

Rachel Rizzo: No, absolutely. And like you said, we did discuss this. I think it was on episode three, as you mentioned. So this wasn't completely unanticipated. But can you explain a little bit about the buildup and maybe a little bit more about some of the military actions that were taken, not just leading up to this, but actually in the operation?

Dhruva Jaishankar: So there were strikes against Venezuelan facilities, both military bases, port communications, antennas and such. It appears as if more than 30 Cuban soldiers who were there, Cuba had a good relationship with Venezuela, were killed in the operation.

Rachel Rizzo: Interesting.

Dhruva Jaishankar: The US says no American soldiers were killed. This then led to a pretty targeted special forces operations with and they were coordinating with law enforcement officials, because again, Maduro, being tried. It was a self-targeted operation where they went in straight and managed to get him in the middle of the night, him and his wife, and extract them. So brought them back to a US Navy ship and then from after that flew him back to New York to face charges. So it was a pretty daring military operation.

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah.

Dhruva Jaishankar: In some ways, think, much like the US bombing campaign against Iran's nuclear facilities last year. It really showcases some of the unique capabilities of US military. There are not too many other military forces around the world that they're capable of doing such an operation. So seemingly effortlessly, it was a high risk operation, but still the fact that it went off operationally quite successfully for the US is quite significant.

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, I think you're right. And just setting the geopolitics aside, setting the decision aside, arguably it was a very successful military operation. What do you think this, what kind of signal would you say that this sends across the region now?

Dhruva Jaishankar: So Maduro and the government in Venezuela wasn't exactly popular in other parts of Venezuela. I partly the mismanagement of the economy had led to a big refugee outflow. And so in some ways it's being welcomed by Venezuelans abroad, including in the United States, who are quite a powerful political constituency. Also some in Latin America. I mean, for example, the Argentinian president Javier Mele, who is very aligned with the Trump administration, has been very enthusiastic. But at the same time, it's going to generate a lot of worries in other countries, particularly Cuba, with which the US has the most antagonistic relationship. But it's also been followed by some threatening rhetoric against Colombia and even Mexico. And so again, many others will be worried about the precedent it would set.

Rachel Rizzo: Can you also talk a little bit about maybe what this means about Trump's willingness to use force or what it says about his administration's approach, not just to foreign policy, but his approach to getting other states to potentially bend to his will? And maybe what signal does it send to states like Russia and China?

Dhruva Jaishankar: So, you know, one, I'd say two aspects to that. One is that a lot of people have characterized the Trump administration's worldview as isolationist. And I've been at least personally a little skeptical of that term because that suggests a real withdrawal from the world.

Rachel Rizzo: I agree, yeah. Yeah.

Dhruva Jaishankar: And instead, even in his first term, you saw his willingness to use force quite and quite daring, some would argue reckless, but certainly bold ways to use force to achieve certain decisive outcomes. And I'm thinking back to the assassination of Soleimani, Qasem Soleimani in Iraq, the Iranian al-Quds force leader six years ago, his use of like a really large weaponry against ⁓ ISIS and ISIL in Afghanistan in the first term. And then again, the bombing of Iran, Iran nuclear facilities and this, right? So there's been a track record of using force quite to achieve specific outcomes. And I think that, again, the isolationist characterization sometimes tends to gloss over that leading to people under underestimating the ability of the United States to use force under Trump. But it also, I think reinforces this view that might is right in this world in this day and age, know, so much for rules and norms.

Rachel Rizzo: Mm-hmm.

Dhruva Jaishankar: And if you're in Beijing or Moscow, I think it sends very mixed signals. It's been interesting to see some of the commentary emerging out of China and Russia in the last couple of days. On the one hand, it's a reinforces this view of spheres of influence. And at the same time, there's this grudging admiration of US capabilities. If you see the way Russia struggled in Ukraine, attempting something similar, change of government, a change of leadership there, again, shows the contrast in US capabilities.

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, I think that's right. I think too that there's a lot of comparisons being made or lots of questions being asked about where or how Russia and China might be looking at this and how that might affect their own geopolitical decisions when it comes to, say, a Chinese decision to move against Taiwan, US decisions against Venezuela or Trump's decisions in the Western Hemisphere wouldn't magically decrease the costs that China would incur both militarily, politically, economically for a move on Taiwan. So whether they can look at it and say, well, the United States doesn't abide by international law, so we shouldn't either, but it doesn't change, I think, the calculus that much, I would say.

Dhruva Jaishankar: I think that seems to be the, there's been a lot of commentary on that exact issue over the last 48 hours.

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah.

Dhruva Jaishankar: And I think most of people who are sort of close followers of China and cross-strait relations believe that, it doesn't really change that much.

Rachel Rizzo: Mm-hmm.

Dhruva Jaishankar: If China wants to do something on Taiwan, they're going to do it anyway. There have been years of planning that has gone into this. For the most part, they don't believe the US is particularly law abiding anyway. They think there's a hypocritical double standards. So I think the general consensus is it doesn't make that much of a difference. Although I think some people are trying to use that argument to criticize the Trump administration's legality and appropriateness of the Trump action in Venezuela.

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, that seems right. I think too that the big questions people are asking now, not just when it comes to Russia and China, but when it comes to the willingness of Trump potentially to use force elsewhere. And the Europeans are clearly on edge about this, given the comments that he's made about Greenland, for example. So I think this does bring in the question about whether or not Trump would be willing to assert that same kind of dominance over other countries that he deems not necessarily problematic in the same way as Venezuela, but as countries that are not bending to his will in a way that he would want them to.

Buying Greeland?

Dhruva Jaishankar: Yes. So actually I was going to pivot to you. fact, what, you know, the Greenland issue came up very early in the Trump term, Trump's second term, in his shortly after his inauguration. seemed to have died down for a little while, but is now back. Talk us through what does this mean for Greenland? Why is it back, back in focus?

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, so I mean, the idea that Trump has wanted to purchase Greenland is not a new one. He first floated it back in 2019 during his first presidency. The idea then became sort of resurgent early last year in 2025 when he said again that the United States, quote, needs Greenland for national security reasons and then sent Vice President Vance on a visit there with the second lady. They received a very chilly reception from the locals, no pun intended. But then, like you said, the issue sort of died down last year. And even for me, as a person that was actually kind of watching this pretty closely, I sort of thought that that was going to be it. But with Trump, there's always a surprise around the corner. And when he was talking to reporters after the action in Greenland, he said yet again that the United States needs Greenland for national security. And he has thus far and continues to refuse to rule out the use of military force to acquire it for the United States. And so you've had comments from European leaders, from the Greenland prime minister, from the Danish prime minister. As most people know, Greenland is an autonomous territory, but it is a part of Denmark. And so a lot of issues, I think, are at play here. But the Danes, the Greenlanders, the Europeans are clearly concerned.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah, and I saw one Katie Miller, who's the wife of Stephen Miller, who's the deputy national security advisors, tweet or put out on social media a map of Greenland with an American flag over it that triggered a response. And then there was a statement, think yesterday, was Tuesday of this week, which was it was a bunch of European leaders, Macron, Sanchez. was most of the top leaders sort of having unified position on Greenland and that any kind of it's up for Greenlanders to decide their future and Denmark and that this would threaten the need essentially implying this would threaten NATO as an alliance, right?

Rachel Rizzo: Absolutely.

Dhruva Jaishankar: But quick question. Why does Trump want Greenland?

Rachel Rizzo: So I think this is a really good question. mean, it's the largest island in the world. It's, I think, three times the size of Texas, if I'm not mistaken. It is strategically located in the Arctic. And there are a few things at play here. There are strategic issues at play. The US has ballistic missiles based in Greenland. We have space-based assets in Greenland. We have military personnel there as well. Because of climate change, for example, northern shipping routes, the seasons that those shipping routes can be used are becoming longer and China and Russia are working together to sort of consolidate control over those potential shipping routes. And so I think Trump wants to make sure that the United States is not only a player in this region, but is the dominant player in this region. It's also home to a lot of natural resources, albeit hidden under at some places, it's two miles worth of ice. So we're looking at things like critical minerals, lithium, cobalt, nickel. And so as this green transition continues and China continues to have most control over these critical minerals, Donald Trump wants to make sure that the United States sort of rests control of those critical mineral productions from China. And so this is where Greenland could really come into play here, although we are looking at years down the line and hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars of effort here. This is not a quick fix or something that would happen overnight. So lots of issues that play both economic, political, military, strategic.

Dhruva Jaishankar: And what I mean, look, we can never rule anything out, but what would you say is like the probability or possibility of any kind of US military action against Greenland? Again, this is a NATO part of a NATO ally, right? So.

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, it is. And which means it's protected by NATO's Article 5, which states that an attack against one is an attack against all. What it doesn't say is what happens when one NATO ally attacks another, especially when that ally is the United States. We've had issues like that in the past with Greece and Turkey back in the day.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Greece and Turkey, yeah.

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah. But I think this would be, I mean, this you never say impossible, but it would be unprecedented. And like I said about China earlier, what happened in Venezuela wouldn't in turn decrease the costs that the United States would incur for some sort of military action against Greenland. And I think the Europeans, as they have stated many times, would be very serious about defending it, although a different conversation would be how and what sort of assets would they actually be able to use here. But I think when you look at the statements that the White House has made, you have to contrast them to some of the statements that say Secretary of State Marco Rubio has made in the last day or so to a closed door session of Congress. said that the United States is interested in quote, buying Greenland, not invading it. And so I think that the likelihood of military action against it is still low. But I do think that the likelihood of economic pressure against it is very high. I think it's clear that the United States doesn't need to own Greenland in order to strategically benefit from it. The Greenlanders don't want to be part of the United States, poll after poll says this. And also earlier last year, polls also said that this was not a popular idea in the United States as well. Also remember that Trump ran on a campaign of peace and you know, what happened in Venezuela, Iran, you can argue about that, but imagine really getting bogged down in some sort of military conflict over Greenland. What would that look like? That would put him on par with the very Washington elites that he continuously lambast. So I think it's unlikely, but I do think that this is not the end of this conversation. It's just the beginning and there's a lot to watch.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah.

Recognizing Somaliland

Rachel Rizzo: I mean, just like moving from Venezuela and Greenland to an issue that is pretty niche, but you happen to be paying attention to this. Can you tell us what's going on with Somaliland?

Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah, I think, you know, it's nice to use this podcast to sometimes shed light on things that are not like in the news, or in the US news and sort of top level.

Rachel Rizzo: Totally.

Dhruva Jaishankar: This past week or so, Israel became the first country to recognize Somaliland. And I will just explain a little bit like why and why, because it may seem random.

Rachel Rizzo: Okay, please.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Israel's foreign minister actually made a visit there. This is in the Horn of Africa, the kind of northeastern or easternmost tip of Africa. And for background, Somaliland has been a sort of de facto independent state for much of the past couple of decades. It has a separate colonial history from the rest of Somalia. If you look on a map, you'll see it as part of Somalia, but it was a British protectorate rather than an Italian one. And it has the strategic location on the Gulf of Aden just at the mouth of the Red Sea. It's had peaceful transitions of power. So it's self-governing, but it's been pretty economically backward and disadvantaged over time. There's not been a lot of investment there. And there are some reports now of mineral resource wealth, which has excited naturally that seems to be something everyone is chasing that's excited some interest in the region and and some renewed interest. But most of all, it's that strategic location right at the Gulf of Aden at the mouth of the Red Sea. And there's a port in Berbera in particular, which is of considerable interest.

Rachel Rizzo: So you mentioned right at the top of your comments that Israel recognized Somaliland. Why now?

Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah, so there has been some activism for some time, both by the people, by the de facto government of Somaliland, but also certain others to recognize it as an independent country. And most recently, the United Arab Emirates has been amongst the most vocal in pushing for such recognition, not publicly, but certainly lobbying quite heavily to do that. This would be welcomed by some, including landlocked Ethiopia which wants to have access to the sea.

Rachel Rizzo: Mm-hmm.

Dhruva Jaishankar: It's a large country and a landlocked country in Africa. But for Israel, I think there is an added benefit. The Abraham Accords, it's seeking greater recognition from different places. It's been attacked by Houthis who are across in Yemen, who are just across the Red Sea from Somaliland. And so Israel obviously has an added incentive. At the same time, there's been resistance to recognition, particularly from the African Union, which has a sort of informal understanding amongst its members that it won't recognize breakaway regions, as many countries in Africa are worried about the precedent it would set.

Rachel Rizzo: Hmm. Yeah.

Dhruva Jaishankar: And for example, Ethiopia itself has been dealing with the issue of breakaway regions in Tigray. And there others, I think, who are opposed to it. Saudi Arabia is actually opposed to recognizing Somaliland. Somalia naturally is, because they claim it's still part of Somalia. Djibouti is opposed because Djibouti kind of has a monopoly right now on a major strategic port in the region. It hosts Chinese, American, Japanese, French bases. And so I think there's now been this renewed push by the UAE and Israel to recognize it and also to get others, the United States, the United Kingdom, India, amongst others, to recognize Somaliland as an independent country. But again, all of that has been complicated by other equities, the US, for example needs cooperation from some of the leaders in Mogadishu and Somalia's capital for counter-terrorism purposes and anti-piracy operations.

Rachel Rizzo: So something to keep our eye on and watch closely. It's interesting that you mentioned the precedent of recognizing breakaway regions. have, for those of us that watch Europe pretty closely, we have the same issue with Kosovo.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah.

A country like Spain won't recognize Kosovo or independence because of the precedent that could, exactly. So you have those issues that are always there and it's gonna be interesting to see sort of how that plays out going forward.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Well, an eventful first week of the year in 2026 and a lot more to watch out for. have been protests in Iran, elections in Myanmar. Just today, there's been this issue of an oil tanker by the United States and reportedly a Russian submarine was dispatched to protect it. we're seeing, so again, a going on, lot for us to talk about in future episodes. But thank you to listeners for joining us this week.

Rachel Rizzo: Yep. And as always, as Dhruva said, thanks for joining us on the Around the World podcast and be sure to like and subscribe to our podcast on YouTube, on Spotify and listen to us on Apple Podcasts as well. We'll see you next week

Episode 7 : Ukraine Negotiations, Putin in India, Honduras Elections

December 5, 2025 — In this week's episode of Around the World, hosts Dhruva Jaishankar and Rachel Rizzo discuss the latest status of the Ukraine negotiations, which have been revised from a 28-point plan to a 19-point plan. They also touch on Putin’s visit to India and its impact on the future of India-Russia relations, as well as Trump’s influence in the recent Honduras elections. 

Available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Sneak peak

Dhruva Jaishankar: It's interesting in the readouts, including debates in the Duma They're really focused, continuing to focus on the defense aspects of the relationship with India. But overall, I think we have some broader structural constraints to this relationship. I think the biggest one is Russia, constraints in the Russian economy. And so these attempts to try to balance the economic relationship, which India is very keen on, are going to confront some obstacles.

Rachel Rizzo: The reason that the Europeans feel like they really haven't been at the table is because they really haven't been at the table. They've actually done a pretty good job of continuing this military support for Ukraine. But in terms of shaping the outcome here, this is very much up to both the United States and, of course, at the end of the day, Russia and Ukraine.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Elections in Honduras, and the reason that's interesting is that the United States under Trump has very clearly backed one candidate. And it's part of just a trend we're seeing across Latin America of polarization in politics and how that that the domestic politics of these countries is being so closely tied to the United States.

Welcome to Around the World

Dhruva Jaishankar: Hi, I'm Dhruva Jaishankar.

Rachel Rizzo: And I'm Rachel Rizzo. Welcome to the Around the World podcast. Your essential guide to understanding the forces shaping our world today. Every week, we cut through the noise to bring you clear, insightful analysis of the most important developments in geopolitics.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Whether it's security challenges across Europe, power dynamics in Asia, domestic updates from the United States, or regional updates in Latin America or the Middle East, we make sure you're up to speed on what's happening and more importantly, why it matters.

Rachel Rizzo: Thanks for tuning in. And be sure to like and subscribe to the Around the World podcast on both Youtube and Spotify. We are now also on Apple Podcasts. And now onto the show.

Ukraine negotiations

Rachel Rizzo: Happy Friday, Dhruva.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Hi Rachel, welcome I suppose to India. You're now going to be there for the next year.

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, that is where I am. That's where I'm based now. So, high from New Delhi, where it's super late. So, you know, us trying to figure out a time that works for both of us to record is going to be super fun.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Yes, and I'm in Washington as usual. So it'd be interesting, actually, think over the next few minutes hearing actually some of your insights on what's happening in Washington. And I think I'll be giving a little bit on what's happening in Delhi. We'll be discussing the Ukraine negotiations that have over the last two weeks, since we didn't record last week, the last two weeks have been quite eventful. And also today we have Vladimir Putin, Russia's president in India. So we'll be discussing his visit as well. So start off with what's going on in the Ukraine negotiations now?

Rachel Rizzo: So it seems like this is a perennial topic, probably to our listeners. And that's because it is. And that's because every few weeks we think that these Ukraine negotiations are going to go somewhere and then they don't. And we're having the same issue this week as well. We're facing the same problems that Ukraine and Russia have faced for the last four years, which is that there is simply too much daylight between each side's minimal acceptable criteria to agree to any sort of ceasefire. And that's really the problem we're running into and that's why we're still at an impasse. And because of this, basically all year Trump has set these deadlines for both sides, Russia and Ukraine, and those deadlines have come and gone again because there's just too much daylight between Ukraine and Russia still. So over the last couple of weeks there's been a major diplomatic sprint, but the sticking points of this 28-point plan that we talked about a few weeks ago, which has been revised to a 19-point plan after talks between the U.S. and Ukraine appear to still be an issue. So that's kind of where we're at and that's kind of where we're going from here.

Dhruva Jaishankar: So one thing just before that 28 point plan, there was already some controversy around it, which is this was initially presented by Steve Witkoff in the United States or to Trump as this was something that had been discussed between the United States and Russia.

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dhruva Jaishankar: And others say that this was really just the Russian, initial Russian plan that was presented without any kind of revision. And that seemed to have been suggested by some members of the US Congress. So it's led to some.. it appears different viewpoints within the Trump administration, even on where the starting negotiation gambit is, right? So what's your sense of that?

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, so this initial 28 point plan that came out was by many people seen as just Russian talking points and Russian desires to create an outcome that is basically ensuring that they gain all of the territory that they've been attempting to gain for the last four years, make sure that Ukraine is never going to join NATO, make sure it has a smaller military. But what happened this week was that Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner met with Putin and his team, I think for over five hours in Moscow on Tuesday, where they really tried to work through some of the sticking points with the Russians, of which there continue to be many. And they relayed back to Trump over the phone that it appears that Moscow really wants to find a deal. I'm skeptical about that. I think that Trump or sorry, not Trump, Putin thinks that time is still on his side and if he just pushes, he'll eventually get the gains that he's been looking for. So people familiar with these discussions basically say there are really four separate elements being negotiated in parallel. One concerns issues related to Ukraine's sovereignty, obviously, like limits on the future size of its peacetime army and on the range of its missiles. The other covers territory, economic cooperation, and broader European security issues. So Russia, Putin has suggested, not only wants Ukraine to cede land that Kiev still controls, but it also wants the United States to legally recognize Russia's conquests. And I have a hard time thinking that the United States is ever gonna do that. So we'll have to see how this plays out in the coming days and weeks.

Dhruva Jaishankar: So I just want to get your thoughts on slightly more, you know, some of the personalities involved here because again, one of the discrepancies appears to be that on the Russian side, it's been a pretty steady set of hands, right? The negotiations are led by Kirill Dmitriev, is actually really is that we grew up in the United States, studied at Harvard, Stanford, very well connected in the US. And then Yuri Ushakov, the former Russian ambassador to Washington. And on the US side, though, they seem to be just like a constellation of people. There's Witkoff and Kushner, who were in Moscow. You have Secretary of State Marco Rubio.

Rachel Rizzo: Dan Driscoll. This is a new one. Yeah.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Dan Driscoll, the US Army secretary, involved in some of the talks in Kiev, but then was also withdrawn for some of the talks. And there have been parallel negotiations in Florida, as well as in Kiev and in Moscow, of course. So it seems like there's again, this discrepancy between, again, a pretty uniform set of actors on the Russian side and a mixed bag on the US side.

Rachel Rizzo: You're totally right. And I think on the Russian side, I mean, these are very seasoned Russian actors, right? These guys have been at this for not just years, for decades. These are former KGB guys, and they're really the best of the best. And I think this is what's difficult about the US position is that, know, no shame on Jared Kushner or Steve Witkoff, but this is a very different kind of conflict. This is not just sitting at a table and trying to find a deal that both sides think is going to work for them. This gets to the heart of, and I've said this before on our other episodes, Russian imperialism. It gets to the heart of Putin's legacy as a leader of Russia. And it's not going to be easy to come to the table and figure out what each side wants and get a ceasefire out of it. And that has been proven over and over again since Trump came into office but also since he was on the campaign trail and said that he was going to solve this war within 24 hours. It's just not going to happen that way. And unfortunately, if you were asking me, I think we've still got a lot of time ahead of us before we see any real outcomes here.

Dhruva Jaishankar: How are the Europeans reacting to it? Not coincidentally, French President Emmanuel Macron was in Beijing. There was, weirdly without any, normally he's traveled with a senior European official or self-underlying or something, this time without one. There was a lot of concern in Europe about during the US-China talks between Xi Jinping and Donald Trump that Ukraine was mentioned again without them in the room, without the Europeans in the room. So how is Europe reacting to these talks between direct talks with the United States and Russia.

Rachel Rizzo: Well, I think it's a mixed bag. I think at the end of the day, the reason that the Europeans feel like they really haven't been at the table is because they really haven't been at the table. And that's because Trump doesn't think that they really bring much to the table. I hate to say it. They've been trying. They've been trying to talk about this coalition of the willing. They've actually done a pretty good job of continuing this military support for Ukraine. But in terms of shaping the outcome here, this is very much up to both the United States and, of course, at the end of the day, Russia and Ukraine. There was some real frustration this week.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Mm-hmm.

Rachel Rizzo: I think that at this really key moment, Secretary of State Marco Rubio was not at the NATO foreign ministerial in Brussels, and instead he sent his deputy. This happens sometimes with European countries, but usually NATO will actually work around the secretary's schedule and accommodate him or her if there are conflicts. So I think there's some frustration there, but during this meeting, you know, the Europeans did the best they can to reaffirm their commitment to supporting Ukraine. Mark Rutte, NATO secretary general, said NATO isn't going anywhere. And he also said Donald Trump is the only person that can break the current deadlock between Russia and Ukraine.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Daddy, he likes to call him daddy.

Rachel Rizzo: He did call him daddy at the NATO summit earlier this year. I bet he would love to forget about that, but the internet lives forever, and so will that phrase, unfortunately. But I think, you know, something broader here is really this question of, you know, is Europe able to act as one? You have very strong actors like France and Germany and even to a certain extent, Italy, Poland, the Baltics. And then you have countries like Hungary, for example, that is really not in line with some of the other Europeans when it comes to, you know, continuing to support Ukraine, pushing back against Russia in terms of sanctions. you have these coalitions of the willing starting to emerge and it's going to be interesting to watch where that goes from here. So certainly something to watch closely.

Putin Meets With Modi

Rachel Rizzo: And then continuing on the European, Eurasian continent, Putin is a few blocks away from where I am in New Delhi. I think he's having dinner with Modi at the moment.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah

Rachel Rizzo: There's a major Modi-Putin summit here in Delhi today and tomorrow is the main meeting. Can you tell us a little bit about what you're watching there and what we should be watching there?

Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah, so just again for some context. So Putin Vladimir Putin doesn't like to travel abroad much. He doesn't do too many foreign visits. In fact, in the last six years, he's done only 14 visits outside the former Soviet, not counting former Soviet countries. Four have been to China. Two have been to meet US presidents, once with Joe Biden in Switzerland and then the famous Alaska summit with Donald Trump. He's visited Iran, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Mongolia, North Korea, Vietnam. But this is his second visit actually to India in that time frame. It tells you a little bit about in the relative hierarchy of things how he views the relationship with India. It isn't a long visit, he's there for 30 hours, a little over one day. And I think for, I mean it's interesting looking at from both vantage points because I think they both need something, right?

Rachel Rizzo: Okay.

Dhruva Jaishankar: So for India's standpoint, this visit is in some ways routine. They used to have annualized visits between the Indian and Russian leaders that go back quite a while. But it's also partly at this time a signal to Washington that India has options. And it's coming at a time when there's still pretty hefty tariffs by the United States on India, 50 % in some cases, and you still have some other difficulties in the relationship. So it is in some ways a signal to Washington at this time. At the same time, for New Delhi, it has to be balanced by outreach to Europe. And there is a free trade agreement that is being negotiated between India and the European Union.

Rachel Rizzo: Yep.

Dhruva Jaishankar: There's growing defense cooperation. I think you've just been meeting with some European diplomats in India, so you'd be interested to hear what you've heard from them. But the main practical objective from India's standpoint is to diversify beyond defense. know, in some ways the India-Russia relationship has been defined traditionally by defense and security..

Rachel Rizzo: Mm-hmm.

Dhruva Jaishankar: And then more belatedly by more recently by commodities, particularly oil but also coal fertilizers. And it's really swelled the trade deficit. We're talking about a $60 billion trade deficit now that India has with Russia only in the last couple of years since the outbreak of the war. So, you know, for India the challenge has been how do you keep up this engagement with Russia while also deeping relations with Europe and the European Union. And again, from India's the main objective is to widen that aperture, so have more balanced trade with Russia. Putin and Modi are attending India-Russia Business Forum.

Rachel Rizzo: Okay.

Dhruva Jaishankar: India wants more market access for pharmaceuticals, agricultural exports, maritime products, all of which are facing tariffs from the United States. And there's also talk about a mobility agreement, which may be finalized, which will allow Indians, instead of facilitate Indians to work in Russia. There has been this concern for a while about Indian contractors and even a couple of cases of students being forcibly recruited to fight in the front lines in Ukraine, and that has deterred Indians from actually going to Russia. So again, these are the issues that India would like to get out of this visit.

Rachel Rizzo: So I mean, just sort of taking a 30,000 foot view for a second here, you were talking about the balancing act that Modi is playing between Russia and Europe. Von der Leyen is coming again for Republic Day in January, which is going to be a huge visit. So there's that. But when it comes to the relationship with Russia, there's obviously a China aspect to this as well, right? I mean, they want to, know, obviously the relationship with Russia has been close for a long time, but isn't part of it at this point today ensuring that that relationship remains close so that Russia doesn't just become a vassal state of China?

Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah, that's a big part of it. So, you the original impetus for the India-Russia relationship in the 1960s was, in fact, the Sino-Soviet split that took place in the 60s and early 70s and China's normalization of ties with the United States. And that led to, in some ways, closer cooperation between India and the Soviet Union. In 1971, they signed a treaty of friendship, a peace and friendship. in some ways, the relationship intensified in the 1990s because it was actually quite transactional. Russia needed... it was the time that the Russian economy wasn't doing so well. India needed relatively...inexpensive but high quality arms. And so that was where the relationship deepened. But it has been informed a lot by China. And now we're in a very different place, particularly since 2014, since the Russian annexation of Crimea. And then particularly after the more broad based invasion of Ukraine, where Russia has become much more dependent on China, geopolitically, economically. If you look at the trade between the two energy sales from Russia to China, the supply chain integration,

Rachel Rizzo: Mm-hmm.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Including in some very sensitive areas like missile components, naval components, there's now a great deal of cooperation.

Rachel Rizzo: Mm-hmm

Dhruva Jaishankar: There have been murmurs of unease in Moscow about the level of dependence that Russia has had to, you know, the level of dependence Russia now has on China.

Rachel Rizzo: Interesting.

Dhruva Jaishankar: And for example, that's translated into Russia trying to welcome more Indian investment in the Russian Far East,

Rachel Rizzo: Okay.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Where there are concerns about, you know, it's a very sparsely populated area, very close to China. But but so far, I mean again, we're on the path as long as the conflict continues where we are going to see a Russia-China relationship deepen and India's sort of trying to mitigate that by continuing to engage with Moscow.

Rachel Rizzo: Okay, so Modi is continuing to engage with Moscow, so is ⁓ India writ large? Is Putin playing ball?

Dhruva Jaishankar: To some degree, yes. It's interesting in the readouts, including debates in the Duma legislature in Moscow and in the Russian press, they're really focused, continuing to focus on the defense aspects of the relationship with India. And so we've had the announcement, expect today and tomorrow, the announcement formally of a reciprocal logistics agreement. This is a kind of allowing the militaries to service each other. India has a similar relationship, agreement with the United States, United Kingdom, France, Australia, Japan, South Korea, many others, it's doing a similar agreement with Russia now. We may see some defense deals, the reports of potentially leasing a nuclear submarine, more S-400 missiles, but that's pretty, that's kind of on pace with what India has been acquiring from Russia. A harder sell will be some, like new fighter jets and things like that, because that will undermine India's own attempts at trying to indigenize its own defense industry.

Rachel Rizzo: Okay.

Dhruva Jaishankar: But overall, I think we have some broader structural constraints to this relationship and some of which are Russia's continued relationship and deepening partnership with China, India's engagements with Europe and the United States. And then I think the biggest one is Russia, constraints in the Russian economy. And so these attempts to try to balance the economic relationship, which India is very keen on, are going to confront some obstacles.

Rachel Rizzo: Absolutely. I mean, mentioning the Russian economy, it's going to be really interesting kind of bringing it back to the Ukraine debate again. If it gets to a point where Trump decides to really tighten the levers of U.S. economic power in terms of sanctions, really trying to turn up the heat on Russian banks, it's going to be interesting to see what that does to the Russian economy, because it's really been able to weather the war actually pretty well over the last four years or so.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Mm-hmm.

Rachel Rizzo: So yeah, stuff that we're all gonna be watching.

Dhruva Jaishankar: There was just a report yesterday that while there has been a drop in Lukoil and Rosneft's exports, there has been a pickup by other entities, other Russian entities. there are always ways of trying to find, like circumvent some of the sanctions that have been placed.

Rachel Rizzo: And those two companies are significant because those are the two companies that Trump decided to sanction just a couple of weeks ago.

Dhruva Jaishankar: And yeah, the two largest energy exporters in Russia as well, they're behemoths, right? And the sanctions kicked in. And even though we've seen a drop from them, we haven't really seen, we've seen an increase from other Russian exporters, which again suggests that various actors are trying to find workarounds to the sanctions.

Rachel Rizzo: All right. So then kind of moving away from the Eurasian European continent, you've been watching the Honduras elections.

Trump's Backing in Honduras Elections

Dhruva Jaishankar: Well, just a few, mean, as a small thing, been a increased China-Japan spat after the Japanese prime minister made some comments, basically saying publicly what was known privately, which was a Taiwan scenario conflict would involve Japan. That was well known, but China has reacted in a very strong manner diplomatically and economically against that. And then Trump is going to host, another thing to watch, Trump is going to host leaders from Africa at the US Institute of Peace building, which now has Donald Trump's name on it.

Rachel Rizzo: Okay which is now renamed. Yep, it's new.

Dhruva Jaishankar: His name is now prominently on display there. One last thing, there are elections in Honduras, and the reason that's interesting is that the United States under Trump has very clearly backed one candidate. And this was a five-way race. There were really three main candidates there. And two of them are sort of essentially a right-wing and left-wing leader are on a knife edge. It's a very close election. It's actually the results have been delayed because of some technical glitches. But Trump has weighed in very strongly in favor of one. And it's part of just a trend we're seeing across Latin America of polarization in politics and how that the domestic politics of these countries is being so closely tied to the United States. One of the very odd bits of all of this is that in the midst of all of this, Trump pardoned a former president of Honduras, Juan Orlando Hernandez, who was in jail in the United States for a 45-year jail sentence. He was convicted on drug-related charges, had been arrested and extradited by Honduras to the United States. And Trump has now pardoned him and released him. So very much weighing into the domestic politics of a country like that.

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, I'm just concerned that I missed this entire story because it's actually super fascinating. I didn't even know that that happened. So I'm glad you're keeping track of it. It's kind of crazy, right? Yeah.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah, it's still ongoing, right? So they haven't actually announced the official results yet. But it's part of it, just again, a broader pattern, again, what we're seeing in Venezuela as well. We talked about this a few episodes ago, but there continues to be a buildup, a U.S. military buildup in Venezuela. Secretary of Defense, or Secretary of War, I should say, Pete Hegseth has been now embroiled in a scandal of sorts, which is that he ordered the killings of survivors to one of the attacks, which some would argue is a violation of human rights and things like that. So that has become a sort mini scandal, at least in Washington. see where that goes.

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, I think we'll be discussing that even more in the next couple of weeks because I think this debate isn't going anywhere. Hopefully we're not at war with Venezuela when we record next week. But obviously we'll be keeping an eye on all of these and make sure we're keeping you, our listeners, to date on all the latest happenings. Be sure to tune in every Friday for the latest episodes.

Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah, thank you for joining us and talk to you next week.