SNEAK PEAK
Dhruva Jaishankar: Russia, interestingly, has been interested in a port at Port Sudan since at least 2017. And this would be its first base if they were able to establish a military base there in Africa. And it's been complicated by, again, the civil war and the changing geopolitics
Rachel Rizzo: I hit translate, and there seems to be an issue with the Instagram translate function because it translated it into the prime minister of the underworld instead of the prime minister of the Netherlands. And that went totally and it went totally viral in the Netherlands
Dhruva Jaishankar: In summary, we're now in for a new nuclear age, which has some exciting and some terrifying potential, both for energy and for security.
Welcome to around the world
Dhruva Jaishankar: Hi, I'm Dhruva Jaishankar.
Rachel Rizzo: And I'm Rachel Rizzo. Welcome to the Around the World podcast, your essential guide to understanding the forces shaping our world today. Every week, we cut through the noise to bring you clear, insightful analysis on some of the most important developments in geopolitics.
Dhruva Jaishankar: Whether it's security challenges across Europe, shifting power dynamics in Asia, domestic updates from the United States, or regional developments in Latin America or the Middle East, we make sure you're up to speed on what's happening and more importantly, why it matters.
Rachel Rizzo: Thanks for tuning in and be sure to like and subscribe the Around the World podcast on Spotify and YouTube.
Dhruva Jaishankar: Hi, Rachel. How are things with you? Where are you in, where you speaking from today?
Rachel Rizzo: I'm in Salt Lake City, Utah, my hometown, hanging out with my parents, doing yard work. Lots of fall leaves to rake up.
Dhruva Jaishankar: Good good. And as usual, again, a lot going on. think this week we will discuss Sudan's civil war, which has been in the news the last few weeks. Elections in the Netherlands I'd love to hear your take on that and what it means for Europe. And Donald Trump has suggested, hinted at a possible resumption of nuclear testing and why that matters and what that means. So those are some big topics to go into, but a lot of other stories in the news of what have been a few things you've been watching.
Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, I mean, obviously, it was a big election week here in the United States. It was a good week for Democrats in that sense. You had a Democrat win the New Jersey gubernatorial race, the Virginia gubernatorial race. You also had Zohran Mamdani,a self proclaimed, self proclaimed democratic socialist, win the New York City race for mayor. So a lot going on. There's a lot of hot takes on the internet at the moment.
Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah. What's your hot take?
Rachel Rizzo: I mean, my hot take, there's a couple things. I mean, it seems like when Donald Trump isn't on the ballot, Democrats seem to do better. There wasn't really like a MAGA adjacent candidate, even in New York City. I mean, you had a Republican running, but it was a little bit muddy in that way. And so I think before we give the hot takes, I think we have to see what happens in terms of Zohran being able to govern in New York. But it does seem like maybe people are ready for less spicy politics at the moment. Things have been pretty polarized for a while. So we'll see how it goes. What have you been watching? Yeah.
Dhruva Jaishankar: So my two cents on that is I wouldn't put too much stock into Mamdani's victory. I mean, at least in terms of the national implications of that
Rachel Rizzo: I think that's right, yeah.
Dhruva Jaishankar: Or Spanberger even in Virginia, both were running against pretty unpopular candidates on the Republican side. The ones that were more interesting for me to watch, one was the New Jersey gubernatorial elections where it was more the margin of victory, which was quite surprising for Mikie Sherrill. Two actually the Virginia Attorney General race was actually really interesting because again, it was a popular incumbent, Republican incumbent against a somewhat controversial candidate on the Democratic side, yet the Democrats won. And then Mississippi as well, actually, again, a very red state where essentially the Republicans lost the super majority there. those to me are more indicative of the at least popular discomfort with parts of the GOP. And again, I'm hesitant about reading too much into it as I'm seeing a lot of analysis doing.
Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, I mean, it does seem like it's hard to take, especially the Mamdani win in New York City and have a situation where the Democrats say, okay, now we need to run this type of candidate in other states around the US. I think this is a very New York specific election. And so we'll see what the lessons learned look like. But what else have you been watching this week?
Dhruva Jaishankar: So three, four other things, interesting thing to watch. Former US Vice President Dick Cheney passed away. He has, was somebody who left a big foreign policy legacy, for better or for worse, controversial in many quarters, but also indicative of how quickly and how much the Republican Party of the US has moved on from, in some ways, his legacy.
Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, it has.
Dhruva Jaishankar: And then looking around the world, we had the Philippines and the UAE's join or apply to join CPTPP, the trade deal. This is a mega trade agreement involving several countries, including Japan, Australia, several Southeast Asian countries, Canada. The United States was part of the negotiations with them withdrew under in the Trump's first term.
Rachel Rizzo: Okay.
Dhruva Jaishankar: But now we have countries like the Philippines and UAE wanting to join that. Again, that's indicative of in some ways, the changing trade order. We have the US Supreme Court hearing arguments this week about the legality of Trump's tariffs. Some of the conservative judges seem to express some skepticism, and we may have a judgment on that in January next year or possibly in the summer, maybe extended to the summer. A few other things, Pakistan has, it might be passing a constitutional amendment law of speculation about what that means. Could it mean more power for the Chief of Army staff there. So another thing to just keep an eye on. One other more random thing, a former UK Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, who then subsequently joined Metta Facebook.
Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, it was a big wig at Meta, yeah.
Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah, he, and again, was one time sort of seen as a future Prime Minister. Well, his wife is, who's Spanish, is starting a new political party in Spain. We’ll see where that goes. So some interesting things happening around the world. Yeah.
Sudan’s Civil war
Rachel Rizzo: Interesting. Okay, and we'll get into European political parties in a few minutes here. You know, but first I want to get us to the topics du jour. We've talked a lot about the Indo-Pacific, we've talked about South America, we haven't talked about Africa as much in our first few episodes. And we wanted to tackle that today because if you've been watching the news, you've heard a lot of what's going on in Sudan. And so I wanted to talk to you a little bit about what is going on there. So our listeners have, have a sense of how things are developing and where this all came from.
Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah, so Sudan is back in the front pages because we saw the fall of a town called El-Fasher, which is in Darfur, a region now, we'll into a little bit more why some people maybe are familiar with Darfur, which is in Western Sudan, to a militia called the RSF which used to be part of the government, but is now engaged in a civil war with the army in Sudan.
Rachel Rizzo: Mm-hmm.
There's been a media blackout in El-Fasher, so there's been very trickles of information coming out, but just reports of horrifying violence, large numbers of civilians killed. The satellite imagery issuing bodies piling up.
Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, it's pretty gruesome.
Dhruva Jaishankar: So there are indications, despite the media blackout, that it's quite horrifying violence.
Rachel Rizzo: So why now? mean, why is Sudan back in the news now? Why did this all come to a head at this particular moment?
Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah, so Sudan, you know, was quite conflict ridden for a while until 2019, the country was led by Omar al-Bashir in Khartoum and you had different overlapping conflicts, one in the south where you had a Christian, I mean, again, it's a multi ethnic country, but in the south, have a Christian majority of countries that were seeking independence or autonomy. And it's again, a very mineral rich part of the country. And then on the in the west, you have a sort of Arab versus non Arab kind of sectarian tensions, including in Darfur. And this eventually resulted in Omar al-Bashir being toppled in 2019 in a coup, a kind of a unity, some interim government being formed by a former army and former militia. So there was a militia called the Janjaweed, which were sort of at the forefront of the violence in Darfur. They kind of became incorporated into, they evolved into what's the RSF, the Rapid Support Forces, and there was kind of a power sharing arrangement after between 2019 and 2023 that was kind of uneasily brokered. And then South Sudan, of course, became independent. So that's kind of what happened. And that interim government lasted for a few years. And then in April 2023, very suddenly, there was a falling out between the army led by Al-Burhan, who's the general in charge of the army and rapid support forces led by a man popularly known as Hemedti. And this, know, people who spoke to people who were in Khartoum at the time. And it was like one day life was going on as normal. The next day suddenly there was just like a gunfire everywhere. It was like chaos on streets.
Rachel Rizzo: Yeah.
Dhruva Jaishankar: So it erupted very suddenly. And we've been locked in this civil war for about two and a half years between the army, supported by a bunch of external actors and the RSF mostly supported, at least it's indicated that a lot of the support is coming from the United Arab Emirates in particular for the RSF.
Rachel Rizzo: Mm-hmm.
Dhruva Jaishankar: There has been the involvement of other external parties for a while. The Wagner group, is a Russian mercenary group, was involved. Ethiopia, Egypt, Libyan mercenaries have all been in various ways involved, either as mediators or supporting one, potential mediators or supporting one side or the other. And then earlier this year, saw essentially Khartoum, the capital shift and the army take it back. And Borheim sort of reappeared in Khartoum. They got the airport again. This was sort of a big deal in the shifting balance there.
Rachel Rizzo: Okay, and so now are things getting worse? Are things stabilizing? It seems like they're getting worse. I mean, just based on reading the news.
Dhruva Jaishankar: Right. So again, shifted a little part. know, it has now moved. The conflict has moved more to the western parts of the country, to Darfur, which is the western region of the country.
Rachel Rizzo: Okay.
Dhruva Jaishankar: The latest violence is really going to draw a lot of attention to it, global attention. There's already been criticism of the UAE, particularly for its support for RSF. But I mean, it remains to be seen whether this gets worse. But it's sort of moved away from... Khartoum was quite divided for a while the capital.
Rachel Rizzo: Okay, and then is there stuff that you can sort of extrapolate from this in terms of what it means for region-wide geopolitics?
Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah, so Sudan had been, after 2019, kind of slowly moving towards a sort of reintegration with the of the international community in many ways. There was even talk of sort of a move towards a more democratic representative government to Sudan joining the Abraham Accords, which would mean recognizing Israel. And it kind of had started to move past the sub-Darfur violence of the early 2000s and the independence of South Sudan. We've now kind of seen with the return of the civil war sort of relapse, if you will. But this is part of the broader reshaping of East Africa that is underway. And the key question is in some ways competition for access to the Red Sea.
Rachel Rizzo: Of course.
Dhruva Jaishankar: Because you have a bunch of landlocked countries, Ethiopia being perhaps the largest of them. And there's a kind of race for who can offer and enable access to various key Red Sea ports, which are important for global shipping. It's a major waterway as we all know. And so you have Sudan, Eritrea, Djibouti, and Somaliland, Somalia, part of Somalia, which are all kind of in the mix there. Russia, interestingly, has been interested in a port at Port Sudan since at least 2017. And this would be its first base if they were able to establish a military base there in Africa. And it's been complicated by, again, the civil war and the changing geopolitics there. And it's faced with number of challenges. And at the moment, Djibouti kind of has a virtual monopoly on that and has essentially hosting US, Chinese, French, and Japanese bases in Djibouti right now. At the same time, again, there's a push for others to explore you know Russia has been looking at Port Sudan. There's also been a push led by the UAE to recognize Somaliland.
Rachel Rizzo: Mm-hmm.
Dhruva Jaishankar: This is the northern part of Somalia that had sort of a slightly separate colonial history. It was a British colony rather Italian one, and has its own government. It's been functionally independent for a while, but has not been recognized by the international community as independent. And there's now a bit of sort of renewed push to do that. The future of all of this is now kind of, this turmoil is sort of shaping all of this, again, the future of Sudan, the question of access to the Red Sea, and the role of external actors is all being shaped by this.
Rachel Rizzo: Okay. I mean, I do think it'd be interesting to have a broader conversation at some point about the role of the Wagner group. This is obviously, as you mentioned, the Russian mercenary group, Yevgeny Progozin used to be the head of it. He was obviously taken out by Putin a year and a half ago, a couple of years ago at this point.
Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah the plane crash.
Rachel Rizzo: He had a quote unquote plane crash as they all do. And so that might be something worth chatting about at some point. But you also had a tweet from, I think it was Rubio, Marco Rubio talking about potential military force in Nigeria, US military force. It's not the only thing happening in Africa at the moment. Yep.
Dhruva Jaishankar: So yeah, it's not the only conflict in Africa. Yeah, certainly this seemed to come a little bit out of the blue, you know, again, Nigeria has a very large Christian population, particularly in the South, Muslim majority population mostly in the North and Northeast. And for a variety of reasons, it seems like the religious tensions there have suggested that. And it isn't just Rubio, I saw another US Senator who's on a particular committee, a relevant committee, also reinforce, you well, maybe this is not out of the realm of possibility. At the same time, Trump has downplayed that as well, military involvement. So it’s been interesting to see again, who would have thought a few years ago, that a year ago that it's actually in Africa and Latin America that the U.S. under Trump might be more willing to use force. mean, the focus have been in Europe and Asia and the Middle East. But again, these things seem to be coming a little out of the blue.
Rachel Rizzo: Yeah. We'll watch it closely.
Tight race in the netherlands
Dhruva Jaishankar: Shifting northwards a little bit. We had elections in the Netherlands. So start us off. What happened there?
Rachel Rizzo: We did. So to paint a clear picture of what just happened in the Netherlands, you really have to go back to October of 2023. And this is when a man named Geert Wilders, he's the head of a far right Dutch party called the Party for Freedom, the PVV. He won a victory during that election with 37 seats in parliament. And that made him and his party, the largest party in the Netherlands for the first time. This was described as one of the biggest political upsets in Dutch politics since World War II, having really a far right party win a, not an absolute majority in parliament, but a clear majority. And then he joined a coalition with three other parties at the time. Interestingly enough though, even though his party was the most popular, he did not become the prime minister.
Dhruva Jaishankar: And why was that? Again, generally by convention, the party that finishes largest has an ability to form government or coalition. So, yeah.
Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, absolutely. That's usually what happens. But there just wasn't enough support around his specific candidacy for prime minister. And these debates went on for months. So at some point, it just became clear he wasn't going to have the votes. And so this man named Dick Schoof, who was an unelected career bureaucrat.
Dhruva Jaishankar: He's a former intelligence officer, he?
Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, he was just like a Dutch, know, sort of like an FSO, or Foreign Service Officer in the US. He emerged as this compromise candidate. And so this was a first in Dutch politics. Basically what had happened is Geert Wilders had been quote firewalled because of his extreme views. And so he finally relented and after 11 months, this government that Dick Schoof was leading ended up collapsing in June of this year because of disagreements over migration policy. And it was actually the PVV, Geert Wilder's party, that ended up leaving the coalition and causing it to co-op. So that's why we had an election last week.
Dhruva Jaishankar: So what happened in the election?
Rachel Rizzo: So basically just days before the election, it looked like the PVV was going to perform well yet again, maybe not as good as they did in 2023, but they were gonna perform well. And it looked like it was gonna be a close three way race between the Greens, the Centrist Party, the D66 and the PVV. What ended up happening is the D66 led by Jetten won the most votes. They narrowly eked out a win over the PVV. So now what ends up happening is, as we all know in parliamentary politics, the hard work of forming a coalition begins. During the campaign, this new incoming, presumably incoming PM talked a lot about forming a progressive government, focusing on things like green energy, looking at affordable housing, health care, focusing on more humane aspects of immigration policy. And at this point, there's basically no way anyone is going to invite the PVV into a coalition again. So it looks like this far right party is out of government, at least for now.
Dhruva Jaishankar: So, Geert Wilder’s out. And I don't know if you saw, he's become infamous for a tweet that he did, which is in Dutch, but it's basically, if you understand English, you can understand all of it, which is it's, have a serious problem. And it's become sort of a running joke. You didn't know that? Okay. All right. Okay.
Rachel Rizzo: I don't think I knew that. I also have a funny Netherlands story, I will tell you after Ifinish explaining what's going on with Dutch politics.
Dhruva Jaishankar: A lot of us have funny Netherlands stories, but so okay. Now I'm always again cautious about sort of taking one election like this, like we talked about the US election and sort of reading too much into it. But what do think the implications are for right-wing parties around Europe?
Rachel Rizzo: Yeah. So you're right, it's hard to extrapolate something broader from this. So right now we have right wing parties heading the governments of four EU member states - Belgium, Italy, Hungary. They're part of coalitions in places like Finland and Slovakia and Sweden. On top of that, the AFD in Germany, the Alternative for Deutschland, the far right party in Germany is super popular. They're up above 20 % in the polls, but they still aren't in government because of this firewall that I talked about. That is in the Netherlands. It's obviously in Germany too. The National Rally Party in France is still super popular, even though Marine Le Pen has been barred from running for public office because of fraud. Her co-leader of the party, Jordan Bardella, young guy, right wing, really popular. So when you talk to analysts about this, mean, it looks like this isn't really a short term trend. This is a political movement that's been building around the continent for a couple of decades now. And this is driven by voters who in the United States too, we can have this conversation, who feel neglected, who have expressed concerns on things like immigration. And what we have seen as a result of this is centrist mainstream parties in Europe have begun adopting more hardline policies and talking points, especially on migration, because they see those messages resonating. And at the same time, this political firewall that has thus far kept far right parties out of governing coalitions is really increasingly difficult to maintain because their electoral success keeps growing. At the same time, looking at the Dutch elections just now, you had the PVV collapse from 37 seats in 2023 down to 26 seats after just 11 months in a coalition. So that actually suggests they might lose support when they actually have to govern and make compromises.
Dhruva Jaishankar: And do you think any lessons to be learned here for center-right, center-left parties that have been sort of on the back foot in many European, particularly Western European countries over the past decade or so?
Rachel Rizzo: I think so. And I think those lessons are beginning to be learned and discussed. First of all, I think these parties need to find a way to talk about hot button issues in a way that acknowledges voters concerns. This is things like immigration, like I mentioned before, things like defense spending, climate policies. Back in 2015, Angela Merkel, the former German chancellor, had this famous phrase, wir schaffen das, which basically means we'll manage this. And it was in reference to the immigration crisis that was facing Europe back in 2015. And clearly that message didn't end up resonating because this is the issue that so many voters are flocking to the AFD over. And so I think they'll need to figure out what to do about that. They'll also need to figure out what to do about this political firewall, keeping far right parties out of governance, because ultimately I think voters will feel like their voices are not being heard. This does not mean I am saying that they should invite far right parties into coalitions, not at all. That's not what I'm saying, but it does mean that they have to figure out a way to contend with this. And I think that this is a live issue, it's a live wire. There's not a clear sense of what to do on that front quite yet. But no, I want to tell you my funny Netherlands story really quickly. So a few years ago, the Greek prime minister visited the prime minister of the Netherlands. Yeah, I think it was. Or maybe it was the other way around. Maybe it was the Dutch prime minister visiting Greece. Anyways, there was a post about it on Instagram, like a government post, a very well-followed account. But the message was written in Greek. And so I hit translate, and there seems to be an issue with the Instagram translate function because it translated it into the prime minister of the underworld instead of the prime minister of the Netherlands. And that went totally and it went totally viral in the Netherlands because I put it on I put it on Twitter and I was like, wow, Instagram needs to work on it needs to work on its translation function because it's a literal it's a literal translation, but it said the prime minister of the underworld.
Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah, but I mean, it's a literal translation, but like nether, nether, nether land.
Rachel Rizzo: So I thought it was really funny and everyone else did, too. Anyway, so so moving on kind of back to the US a little bit, we'll obviously keep following far right politics in Europe, but heading back to the US.
Dhruva Jaishankar: Right, right, okay, okay.
Return to nuclear
Rachel Rizzo: There seems to be some discussion about a resumption of nuclear testing. That's something we should discuss probably.
Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah, so you know nuclear testing the testing of nuclear weapons has been somewhat taboo since the 1990s France did a round of tests in the South Pacific in the 90s which were quite controversial then India and Pakistan did tests in 1998, but really haven't done any tests since then it's been 27 years So it's really only in North Korea that has done five I believe now is five or six tests and again There is a particular unique context around that. It's a lot of it is about the signaling aspect of it as well. Now Trump has now seemed to say like what's wrong with now resuming for the United States resuming nuclear testing. China and Russia have been doing it. He said, Pakistan, North Korea have been doing it. And at first again, they got a lot of pushback. are like, wait, Russian China haven't done it for a while now. But CIA Director John Ratcliffe kind of backed him up and said that there been reports even from before the Trump administration that China and Russia were kind of skirting some of their obligations in terms of doing things just short of a sort of major nuclear test. Trump said very specifically that, you know, they're doing a deep underground, we don't feel it, which is, it would be noticed. It's very hard to get away with doing a serious explosion. But anyway, so he got a little bit of backup from the CIA on. that
Rachel Rizzo: Okay, and then the energy secretary, Chris Wright, said it actually may not even require explosions.
Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah, so again, there's a little bit of confusion. It could be that Trump is kind of conflating two or three different things here. So one is, in many of the cases he seemed to cite, they were actually conducting tests of nuclear capable delivery systems like missiles, which they're doing. And everyone is doing that. Everyone is modernizing their nuclear arsenals. China is, Russia is, India, Pakistan, Israel, everyone's doing it. The other thing is he could be talking about non-explosive testing. And that is done sort of periodically to update and to you know, that is done even by the United States. So there is a bit of that. And in some cases, they seem to be referring to test pretty Pakistan, North Korea that we're done. But it's been a little while, but again, the case of Pakistan. So it could have been conflating a little bit of all of that. But the fact is we are in the midst of a global renewal of nuclear armament.
Rachel Rizzo: Yeah
Dhruva Jaishankar: It is happening and it is largely driven by China's rapid expansion of its nuclear arsenal. For many years, China's had nuclear capability since 1964, it kept a pretty small arsenal on purpose. And now in the past, for reasons that are not entirely clear, they're rapidly expanding their nuclear arsenal. And so others are following, including now, again, the US might be doing so, Russia. And then others are just investing more in sophisticated delivery systems, longer ranges, more precise missiles. different platforms. China did a test of orbital glide vehicles, which are meant to circumvent a lot of traditional ballistic missile defense systems.
Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, I remember that.
Dhruva Jaishankar: You're seeing new sea and submarine launch capabilities. And then, again, three years ago, we had a pretty serious scare of Russia threatening and coming very close to using a tactical nuclear weapon in the context of the Ukraine War, quite possibly as a warning shot in the Black Sea or something more. But it was very serious and one day the book will be written on how close the world got to the first use of a nuclear weapon since Nagasaki, at least in the conflict time. So all in all, we've come a long way from talk about nuclear disarmament. You may remember in 2008 Barack Obama became president and he made this famous speech in Prague, think in 2009, I think.
Rachel Rizzo: Mm-hmm.
Dhruva Jaishankar: Where he talked about a world without nuclear weapons. And yet he ended up, by the end of his presidency, ordering one of the largest modernization programs of the US nuclear weapon arsenal. So we've come a long way since then.
Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, it doesn't seem like there's gonna be a decrease in nuclear weapons anytime soon. But it's also related to nuclear energy a little bit.
Dhruva Jaishankar: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So this new nuclear age that we're in is in the military realm is also coming at a time of something of a civilian nuclear, civilian nuclear energy renaissance. And nuclear energy had long been seen by publics in many places as dangerous because of accidents in Chernobyl in the 1980s, in Fukushima in 2011.
Rachel Rizzo: Mm-hmm.
Dhruva Jaishankar: And so we saw a lot of countries, Germany most noticeably sort of essentially doing away with nuclear energy. But those two accidents particularly happened under very unusual circumstances. And now, particularly with climate change pressures, cost as well, nuclear energy is now being seen as a cheaper, more energy secure, and in some cases, a cleaner alternative to fossil fuels. So even Germany is now considering reinvesting in nuclear energy. And countries like the UAE certainly are, which is sitting on a lot of oil riches. Even they have a pretty advanced nuclear program. There have also been some new technological breakthroughs. And one is the development of what are called small modular reactors, SMRs, which are underway. China and Russia are somewhat leading in that game, but there's several private US companies now sort of trying to go into that area. It is still more useful and practical in theory than in practice. So we'll see how cost effective some of them are. A lot of data centers are looking at these small modular reactors to power the power data centers. Another new development somewhat is nuclear fusion, which has long been seen as the holy grail for clean energy. This is essentially the same similar reaction to what powers the sun. But there's some hints that a breakthrough is in sight that the technological problem is still to this day, more energy is required to go in to create that catalytic process.
Rachel Rizzo: Yep.
Dhruva Jaishankar: So you know, so it's a net loss, an energy loss. So hold your breath on that. But in summary, we're now in for a new nuclear age, which has some exciting and some terrifying potential, both for energy and for security.
Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, absolutely. And I know this is a hot topic in Europe as well in terms of the discussion around nuclear energy. It's been such a politically salient discussion for decades, especially with, you know, political parties like the Greens in places like Germany. So something to watch, something to discuss. As always, we'll be keeping an eye on these developments and more, and we'll make sure we're keeping you, our listeners, up to date on all the latest happenings. Again, be sure to tune in every Friday for the latest episodes. And if you haven't already, like and subscribe to the Around the World podcast on Spotify and YouTube. Thanks so much, Druva. We'll see everyone next week.
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